On Thursday, Return of Kings published my article highlighting five serious problems with the Alt Right movement.
The article must’ve struck a chord because there has been an overwhelming number of comments (over 650 as I write this post). But the feedback was not just limited to the comments section on ROK. The TRS Forum also carried a thread dedicated to the article.
In the article, I identified five areas that are weaknesses of the Alt Right movement:
- Lack of organization means that it coordinate political activity.
- Lack of coherent plan for achieving its goals.
- Many in the Alt Right desire a virtually all-white state, but minimize the fact that at least half of white people are left-wingers.
- The well-funded establishment on the pseudo-right and left are hell bent to crush the Alt Right.
- Infighting and purging of allies can unnecessarily weaken the movement.
My purpose in writing the article was to stimulate discussion, so I am pleased that it generated so much. Below are some of the comments that exemplified broad themes and my responses.
Many on the Alt Right do not like Roosh
One thing that I did not anticipate is that some people viewed my article as an opportunity to criticize Roosh. I was surprised by this because all the thoughts in the article were my own. But these comments were not directed at the contents of the article as much as they were at Roosh’s ethnicity:
MOONMAN TRIPLE K called Roosh a “sand ape.”
The fuck is this, a divide and conquer article if i ever seen it, just because we don’t want a sand ape like roosh fantasizing white rape, we are somehow divided…
While most of the commenters who oppose Roosh did so because of he is non-European, others oppose him because of his PUA past:
My response: If someone is convinced that Persians are just another variety of Middle Eastern barbarian, I doubt that it would be worth it to try to argue about it. A bigger concern is that people are rejecting Roosh’s ideas without actually reading what he has written.
For example, Roosh recently published an article on ROK with bits of wisdom from Islamic civilization. ROK does this all the time. I’ve seen articles distilling wisdom from the Bible, Classical civilizations, Ancient China and Japan, and pre-Christian Europe. But for some reason, people on Twitter accused Roosh of being a crypto-Muslim and using ROK to convert men to Islam.
If you really wanted to accuse Roosh of anything, it would be that he is trying to convert men to Christianity. After all, he hired me and I definitely have an undercurrent of Catholicism in some of my articles. Even worse, he hired a Catholic monk as a regular columnist to teach readers about spirituality and prayer.
Moreover, it is also clear that Roosh has moved on from his PUA past. His reorientation of ROK from a site with PUA-type articles to Neomasculinity has probably resulted in a decrease in income, at least in the short term, as there are more men who want to learn how to get laid than there are men who want to improve themselves and fix society.
Roosh’s most recent writings reveal that he has been thinking deeply about how to rebuild Western Civilization and he is taking concrete steps to do it. He’s written a lot about the subversion of the West, and even about the elite plans to destroy/weaken white people—and he has done on websites with huge traffic. Purging Roosh would be like purging one of your best generals.
Does the Alt Right seek an all-white state?
In my article, I wrote: “the biggest unifying principle in the alt right is the desire for an all white state.” After reviewing the comments, it is clear that my statement was too broad. I should have said that some in the Alt Right want an all-white state. For example, the comment that received the most up votes on ROK came from David Flory.
I do not think that alt-right is unified by desire for an all-white state. Most of us would probably be well pleased with a solid white majority and an elite and government in which our interests are well-represented. Our enemies are so openly hostile to us now that we are unified simply by opposition. We should not fall into infighting over long-term goals at this point.
Trump is appealing because he represents an American nationalism that is unquestionably culturally and majority white (and Christian), but is tolerant and accepting of non-whites who are willing to assimilate to it.
Commenter Driver added that is not so much an all-white state that is desired as the right for whites to be proud of their heritage. He added that men of all races have been marginalized in the current political discourse:
When was the last time you heard any politician talk about issues or needs important to white men (or men in general for that matter)?
While I believe most ROK readers agreed with the sentiment, some people in the Alt Right believe the movement is synonymous with White Nationalism:
Some commenters make whiteness trump everything. When commenter Ivan Herrera asked: ” is a white Muslim from Bosnia or Chechnya better than a brown Colombian Christian?” Commenter 5n4k33y35 responded:
Yes. Absolutely. Only jews want brown Christians rather than white Muslims.
My response: Allowing whites to be proud of their heritage, and to form their own communities is something that unites the Alt Right. But there is some division between those who want an all-white nation and those who see the possibility of coexistence with other racial groups.
As I mentioned in my article, I view the desire for an all-white state in the US as being utopian. Not only would it be difficult to achieve (secession, civil war, or societal collapse would be required) but it would also take many years to get there.
A better approach would be to acknowledge that the US is already racially diverse and work together to enable different groups to naturally form their own communities and schools without government enforced diversity. Although this approach would require changes to legislation, it would not require a revolution.
I also believe that in certain cases, ideology or religion takes precedence over race. Just ask the people of Boston who lost loved ones or limbs to the “white” Tsarnaev brothers whether they think Muslims from Chechnya are a better bet than Christians from Columbia.
The Alt Right views lack of organization as a strength
In my article I mentioned that lack of organization and lack of a coherent plan was a weakness of the Alt Right. After all, without planning and organization, it is difficult to achieve one’s goals. But the folks on the Alt Right disagreed. They feel that the lack of organization is a strength.
Back in November, Alt Right Twitter account @uncucktheright tweeted that only thing that is happening now is evangelism—winning hearts and minds:
A commenter at ROK, Montgomery Draxel agreed. He wrote:
This kind of movement is impossible to lead (rightfully so), and attracts all kinds of characters. It’s about trolling the establishment to get them to honestly discuss the collapse of western civilization at the hands of modern (((elites))).
Other commenters characterized the Alt Right as a “think tank” where ideas can be shared and new ones are generated.
My Response: I agree with the commenters that the Alt Right is indeed changing minds and the Alt Right is also a fertile bed for new ideas.
While this is all true, my criticism remains. As @uncucktheright states, the timeline for change is 10 to 20 years. I believe that with organization, faster progress is possible.
The Alt Right believes the Establishment will fail to crush the movement
The commenters felt that the establishment would not be able to crush the Alt Right because the movement is too defuse to define. They felt the Alt Right could continue wage asymmetric warfare against the establishment using memes.
Judging by what recently happened to National Review, the Alt Righters might be correct.
After I wrote the article on the weaknesses of the Alt Right, National Review dedicated an entire issue to attacking the GOP frontrunner, Donald Trump. The effectiveness of National Review’s move remains to be seen, but the early feeling is that NR damaged themselves, not Trump.
Old-time conservative Phyllis Schlafly went so far as to predict NR’s demise within a year. Let’s hope she’s right.
Summary
The Alt Right is a movement (phenomenon?) that is in a state of flux. There is definitely a tension between those who want to create an all white state (and perhaps even a pecking order among whites), and those who just want to stop insanely high levels of immigration, preserve their ethnic heritage, and live without constant government social engineering. Judging by the looks of it, the former group may be gaining the upper hand.
Roosh also published work by me, and I am very appreciative of that.
Looks like you are moving up in the web…
I read that article – it was very good and I do agree with your points – here is were I say that I have never been a big fan of Roosh and ROK… and the whole PUA scene… I learned to pick up chicks the hard way – by trial and error… and I do what works for me and will continue to do so until it no longer works… the end… however, I have been reading more of ROK lately and I have noticed the change in direction that site and Roosh have taken – I did discover your site through one of your articles at ROK… and I found Simon and The Iron Legion through his article there – and I said there, on his site, that I do not like nor will I join a movement – they get infiltrated, taken over, destroyed and forgotten… movements are not for me, but I understand what Simon is saying and what he is trying to do – and I am doing it… Defend, preserve and pass down – or parish.
To me this Alt-Right is just another movement like the Tea Party, Libertarians, and what was once called Conservative… and none of it was ever really for me – I took the long way ‘round just to get back to the things I believed in when I was a boy – best stated by Cato The Younger – “I am a Throne and Alter, counter-revolutionary, Traditional Catholic, Monarchist. I seeks a return to the glory of the Occident, and a Rx form of society within the morality of true orthodox Christian teaching.” – link: https://americanmorals.wordpress.com/2016/01/20/christian-rx/.
I am a traditionalist – if we are going to use labels… I am not a conservative and not too sure what Neo-masculinity is… but I know what a traditionalist is and what traditions I wish to preserve – so – I am a traditionalist… others will call that fascism… not sure how the two connect but that is what I have been called… so be it… I don’t care. I see nothing wrong with people having pride in their race and culture and I respect that, and I also believe that if one emigrates to another country one should respect the laws and culture of that country and should assimilate… it is what I had to do… it is what I did… but now, as far I as am concerned, I am just a Mexican half-breed with American citizenship… waiting to be able to give it all back… and leave for greener pastures… and there are for a man like me… especially because in the white American utopia there will be no room for the half breed… they will come after us too… though the brown man’s faith just might be stronger than the white mans… and we can organize our gangs better than the blacks… but there will be no place for us here… here is a little reality for the white so called conservatives… as far as the Mexicans in your country go – Mexicans don’t have a problem going back to Mexico and many hard working Mexicans that are here legally are already starting to leave… the ones milking your system will stay to milk it dry if you let them… but those are the ones Mexico doesn’t want… and believe it or not – The majority of Mexico does not want to have anything to do with the filth that the United states has turned into… and Mexico is trying very hard not to become like us here in the states… it is a struggle because the Marxist are everywhere…
Some one commented that your article was a “divide and conquer” article – you can’t divide a movement that is not united in the first place – the one comment that stands out for me is this –
Some commenters make whiteness trump everything. When commenter Ivan Herrera asked: ” is a white Muslim from Bosnia or Chechnya better than a brown Colombian Christian?” Commenter 5n4k33y35 responded:
“Yes. Absolutely. Only jews want brown Christians rather than white Muslims.”
So – you would let the jews stay in your society – because they are white? Good luck with that.
But I like this response from you – “A better approach would be to acknowledge that the US is already racially diverse and work together to enable different groups to naturally form their own communities and schools without government enforced diversity. Although this approach would require changes to legislation, it would not require a revolution.
I also believe that in certain cases, ideology or religion takes precedence over race. Just ask the people of Boston who lost loved ones or limbs to the “white” Tsarnaev brothers whether they think Muslims from Chechnya are a better bet than Christians from Columbia.
I am making plans to build a small village somewhere in Mexico or perhaps further south – it will be for like minded traditionalist… because of Government regulations I cannot build such a community here – because I will not be able to discriminate against other groups – though I cannot figure out why a person would want to live among others that don’t want him there unless there is some agenda involved – I have researched the Amish community and have come to the conclusion that they are able to be left alone has got to do with some sort of agreement between them and the government… it is just a theory but I can’t figure out just how they do it – how do they keep everyone else out and be left the hell alone… you and I probably wont be able to do it without pissing people off – but what can be done in America is one family living on one property… everyone one you are related to can live together in one place on private property and you can keep others out without an invitation – tribalism… until the government shows up with their tanks – tanks for the freedom.
when we build our community we wont care what color you are – what is important is your character and your believes and they must be compatible with ours – for once you are allowed into the community you are part of the tribe and you must have something to bring to the table – if you are not a traditional Christian with a useful skill and something of value to bring to the tribe – you’re not getting through the gates… we don’t care who you are…
From a comment I left somewhere else –
“I am building a gang – I am forming a tribe. We are not a militia, we are a nation. we are traditionalists. we are Christians – we do not accept your labels of conservatives and extremists – we are liberated and united in one belief and one God. we are strong, determined and proud and we will not grovel before you – you have nothing we need or want. We are intelligent, we are creative, we are independent of your world… of your system. We are among you but separate from you – we are not participants in your decline. We will not protect you, we will not defend you in the chaos… you will come to us, if you have nothing to offer our society the gates shall be closed to you. we seek men of strength and conviction – fearless in mind and spirit. We seek women of tradition that wish to help preserve their culture with dignity and honor – the future of your people is in your hands. We are not afraid to fight – when the fight comes. We will stand up for what we believe in. We prefer to live among you in peace if we are left alone to live as we chose – but we are not afraid to throw fuel on the fires of chaos… because we have a plan, we have a tribe of brothers to fight at our side… you will abandon the stranger next to you when the shit hits the fan…
We are not afraid.”
Congratulations Michael on a successful article!
Thanks Victor. I don’t think that most Americans, or even most Alt Right supporters, want an all-white state. Most people just want to stop the constant subversion. They want a place where they can earn a decent living and safely raise a family.
I’m a bit busy with work so I will be very brief. I’m ultimately a traditionalist as well. I believe that forming a tribe is of foremost importance and that Christianity needs to be at the center. We need to prepare for battle, should it arrive. I believe it will come inevitably. I agree with the sentiment that you beautifully expressed in the comment you included.
At the same time, some powerful forces are at work. As Christian men we are obliged to step up and lead to create a decent society for ourselves and our children here and now.
“They want a place where they can earn a decent living and safely raise a family.” – This is what we all want – minus the busy body do -gooders…
Hello Victor!
This is a refreshing reply that actually makes some sense. Thank you! I found this site through ROK. If we are using labels I would consider myself a traditionalist that happens to be Catholic, non-white, and Libertarian leaning. Yes we are building a tribe (or gang) from every race and tongue and we are not going anywhere.
Welcome BlueZ –
I am looking to expand my tribe internationally… and to make alliances with other like minded clans.
The beginnings of my plan are here http://www.thisblogisdangerous.com/separation-in-place-thoughts-and-observations/ and here http://www.thisblogisdangerous.com/separation-in-place-thoughts-and-observations-part-ii/
It can be done. I am working on fine tuning the plan to let others know how to build their tribes and live separate from the modern world. I also recommend you read this post by Simon Wolfe – http://www.thisblogisdangerous.com/a-brotherhood-for-the-modern-age/ and his http://www.thisblogisdangerous.com/separation-in-place/
Very good. AltRight here.
Some things I don’t agree with but overall I agree with your assessment of Roosh.
At worst one can find him to have a ‘sleazy’ character in many ways, he is clearly adjacent to the AltRight in many ways.
What triggered this (I think) was his statement that saving left wing women is a waste of time.
Now the AltRight doesn’t like leaving white women for the sport of Arabs (reasonable) and Roosh would have been wrong to suggest that as this was after the Cologne attacks.
However I spoke with Roosh and he said that he did not mean allowing social unrest and taharush to exist on the streets of Europe. And he favorably commented on the actions of German nationalists.
As well as the countless examples of his writing and appearances on youtube channels where he clearly sides with the Europeans. The Girlwriteswhat interview is a good example.
And Roosh does try to rile people up on twitter for views, again what he directly told me.
Now for what I disagree with. You’re right to say factions of the AltRight are more idealistic than others and the nascent movement lacks direction.
However I do disagree with the characterization that we would welcome Rachael Maddow over a racially conscious Asian. We’re perfectly willing to punish traitors with exclusion.
Many are unwilling to include non-whites. Now, I see this as unrealistic but having hardliners is an advantage. Suddenly someone like me doesn’t look so bad at a certain point. And any state I make would prioritize white fertility in a rather unfair manner.
And, while we are on it there are profound differences within European populations. Which is why I think Grand White Nationalism would fail just as Baathism did (by being too broadly defined). This doesnt mean all French and all English must be separated. After all, Switzerland exists. But one should expect performance differences and people auto-segregating even in a white state.
Any of your thoughts would be appreciated.
Daniel, I agree with your assessment of Roosh. If you watch him closely, he puts out some extreme ideas as thought experiments for the readers. If I recall, his tweet about protecting European women was put out in the form of a question. It turned the focus off the rapefugees and onto the sickness in Western culture that enables the rapefugees to exist in the first place.
In my article I used Maddow as a proxy for all shitlibs. She’s obviously a subversive force on society, but there are tons of other people who share her views but who do not have a platform to speak from. These people would work to undermine any beneficial changes.
I was pleased that almost everyone would admit nonwhite people who work hard and support healthy communities. Before writing the article, I was under the impression that more Alt Right people supported a pure white state. It turns out that the “one drop” faction is a minority in the movement.
I agree that having hardliners can be a good thing. They act as a preservative from the tendency to swim to the left. Preventing the decay of society is something I think about a lot.
On segregation among whites, I think that would happen naturally as well. There are some communities that have retained a lot of their European culture, and they tend to marry within their own group. I see no problem with this. But if we want one country, we are going to have to allow this diversity to exist without antagonizing each other—otherwise we will end up with thousands of bickering tribes.
I’ve seen some people who have suggested that only the descendants of the English (or English & Germans, or some combo like that) should be allowed to be citizens. There are so many non-Anglo types in the US that it would be a nonstarter.
The Christian Faith was the glue that initially held together all the different divisions of ‘white’ culture.
This campaign of hatred by the “14/88” crowd is simply white-knighting. They are outraged that Roosh is successful at banging white women. But it never occurs to them that these white women are sentient objects gifted by God with free will. Let’s try something new white knights… as long as we know ACTUAL rape didn’t occur … and I am 100% confident Roosh has never raped because if he had some SJW would have pulled a Julian Assnage on him … so as long as we know the women consented … let’s hold them accountable for that consent … sober or otherwise. It’s time to start treating adult women like adults. They bang Roosh because he gives them the tingles. If that bothers you 14/88’ers (and I know that it does), well, tough. Fuck you. Roosh is alright. And the alt-right needs him. You want to take out Roosh you’re going to have to go through me.
Some thoughts:
Michael Sebastian’s initial article – and this followup – are well written. In particular, it takes class to issue corrections and to use that as a further driver for additional growth engagement. He is to be commended for that.
There are some crucial things for men involved in the neomasculinity sphere to understand. And the confluence of the alt-right, the open bloody clash of the West with Islam, and the existential demands it places upon men today is at the top.
Previous commenters are correct. To focus on Roosh’s ethnicity is both self-defeating and a gratuitous deviation from the work he does in promoting the driven rise of the West. One may appreciate perspectives without agreement; one may also appreciate the power of allies without embracing their specific alignment of purpose.
What is described as the 14/88 crowd has both its power and its drawbacks. Speaking purely as a man of the West – I do not care the ideology or the beliefs of the man at the redoubt beside me, so long as his spear is aimed in the same direction.
Perhaps a better analogy would be that when the boat is rapidly taking on water, the political purity of the man bailing it out next to you is irrelevant. There may be a repositioning or reckoning at a later time; but when survival of the West is at stake, it’s not a time for fainthearted disdain or dislike – in any direction.
The tide of the dark world does not care or regard your individual whines.
It surges forward, cruelly and above it flaps the green banner of Islam.
The 14/88 crowd has its ugly side. Yet the passion it brings and the ferocity of their spears is a strong, necessary and valuable phalanx in the formations of men.
We cannot discard them. They fight.
Roosh has his place. The ability to drive traffic, to reach the multitudes with a recognizable voice, and to bring more men into the fold of the era is incalculably valuable. You will never identify pure and perfect leaders.
In this grave and savage time of collapse, it is effective leaders that are desperately required. And ethnic purity is not relevant when it comes to the marshaling of forces.
There are those who will disagree with me.
That is fine. We can discuss later.
For now, look to the front.
The dread thunder of incoming hooves rises. Do you hear it?
Can you feel the ending of the world?
Discard petty, whining tribalism. It is not merely your tribe that faces damnation, death and enslavement.
It is the West itself, and the old glory of Charles Martel must rise again.
Embody it. And grip your spears. The onrush comes.
Regards,
Ivan Throne
twitter: @darktriadman
web: http://darktriadman.com
email: him@darktriadman.com
“In the article, I identified five areas that are weaknesses of the Alt Right movement:”
Good write up. I have the answer for all 5 of your areas of weakness. For the sake of space, and because I think it provides the best example, I’m going to focus on #3.
Before I dive in, I take the chance whenever I can to emphasis that Yahweh’s law is superior to man’s “law” in every case. Every answer, for every problem, is in His law. You do not have to be a believer to intellectually and academically appreciate the absolute superiority of His law. Without this law, civilization cannot exist. Period. Caucasians are reduced to savages and no better off than a pack of chimps or bonobos (great article on RoK ). Like the law of gravity, man can ignore Yahweh’s moral law, but he will eventually meet the splat at the end of the fall.
Concerning your point #3, “Many in the Alt Right desire a virtually all-white state, but minimize the fact that at least half of white people are left-wingers”.
– Culture is religion externalized. Western culture has abandoned, forgotten, or is otherwise completely ignorant that the laws that once united us, and made us successful, were Yahweh’s laws in the Bible.
– Contemporary, humanistic “law” is failing all around us and the collapse is a matter of time.
– The above two bullets lead into my point (next bullet), and also speak to your #1 and #2 points, because there is no agreement on law for this movement. Without a commitment to law, there will never be organization or any effective planning.
– “White left wingers” is a synonym for what the Bible calls, “the wicked”. Same people; different name. The wicked are the enemy and have no place among the righteous. The righteous are not a sinless and perfect people, rather those who promote and strive to gain ground for the perfect law that protects, sustains, promotes justice, and advances human civilization.
– “An all white state”, or segregation in general, is mandatory under Gods’ law. I could give more examples than space will allow here, and would be happy to expound at some point in more detail (I love His law it’s awesome), but just a few examples:
– The account of the Tower of Babel.
– The example of the “mixed multitude” that followed the Israelites (not the “Jews”) out of Egypt. They dwelt “outside the camp” but Yahweh sanctioned these mixed people to orbit His people, while keeping them segregated. Why? Because even though these people were racially different, they followed the Israelites because they believed and followed the law of Yahweh. So yes, while foreigners were required to dwell in their own, segregated land, they were allowed to participate in limited commerce and worship with the Israelites. They had the same goal as the Israelites (such as the Asian lady in your example).
– Were these foreigners allowed to integrate, geographically or otherwise, with the West? Were they allowed to intermarry? Did they have inheritance with them? Did they have part in their law keeping system as magistrates (judges) and priests (political leadership)? Did they have any say whatsoever in the civil matters of the West? Could they own property within the geographical borders of the West? The answer to all of these, and similar questions, is no. In order to qualify to “dwell outside the camp” in the first place, they had to understand these things and want to abide by them. Otherwise, they would be judged by the law for whatever they transgressed just as the native born Israelite. Judgment is equally applied for all people.
Most people naturally segregate and an all white state is very possible. It just has to be based on the principles found in Yahwehs’ law, were the answers have always been, and when the people are equipped with the proper understanding this can take place again (read Ezra and Nehemiah).
Better to rediscover these timeless principles now, and make a shift back in the positive direction, rather than wait for our enemies to back us into a corner where the implementation will be a matter of survival and warfare instead of peaceful free will.